Category talk:Hitchhikers

Why
Maybe we should first ask ourselves why we want to put everyone in little boxes. You are black hitchhiker, I am white hitchhiker, you are a Jewish hitchhiker, I am an atheist hitchhiker, you are a vegan hitchhiker, I am a meat eating hitchhiker...

I am a hitchhiker and it doesn't matter a flying, excusez-le-mot, f*** where I come from, what my religion is, or what I eat!

Ever thought about the fact that some people might not want anyone other than their closest and most trusted friends to know where they come from? Prino 14:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * One thing I want to make clear here: NOBODY is trying to reflect your nationality (even though you yourself in your profile almost obviously make clear that you are most certainly Dutch) by creating a category that is simply meant to unite those from the same country. Categories like Dutch hitchhikers and Hitchhikers in the Netherlands (or Hitchikers from the Netherlands) are two (three) very different things. Actually, if you ask me personally about the nationality issue, I think it is a bit of a prejudice that people so radically hang on the "One world - one nation" idea (and state that they're "citizens of the world") - ok, I respect that, but it really becomes a disturbing thing with no real ground for such a fanatical impulsiveness for example here when only for the pure comfort of systematized users who might be curious (like me, for instance) who else is a hitch-hiker in the region they live in we try to create a category without a slightest intention to depict user's "sacred" nationality. Please, Robert, think about it. And say Augustas "Hi" from me. ;) --Sigurdas 05:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I 'escaped' from the Netherlands to remove the need of the Dutch to categorize everything into umpteen different boxes (aka verzuiling). People are people, not screws you can put in a box. As for finding others close to me, why not create a map where people can indicate their location, similar to the maps with hitch-hiking spots, with the added advantage that you can see how close someone is; Kiruna-Stockholm is a somewhat bigger distance than Malmo-Kobenhavn... --Prino 11:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea! The problem is that this idea needs first to be developed and then to be somehow integrated in such a way that every user notices it. And the easy way of uniting current users we can do now already, through a simple category that IS ALREADY THERE, and does no obvious harm whatsoever (as explained below, emphasis on nationality is not smth anyone here seeks). Why make things complicated when they are so simple? --Sigurdas 14:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, a wondered about the categorization by nationalities but I because of 'in' it's ok for me. I want to strongly encourage everybody to take this literally as a 'I hitch hike there' which enables us to handle it like a skill. So if you set yourself into all the categories of nations you travelled in like a skill indicator, you friendly offer to exchange your knowledge about this area. --Kardan 20:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I personally see already introduced Hitchhikers in... categories exactly as an indicator of current user location, and that only. I think we can rather express our skills and knowledge on hitchwiki pages instead of having multiple categories on user pages. --Sigurdas 20:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

How
Should we perhaps also create categories for hitch-hikers from different countries, e.g. Hitchhikers from Germany? Analogue to en:wikipedia/Category:Explorers_by_nationality. It is a good tool to unite hitch-hikers from the same country, under the same category.--Sigurdas 17:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sounds good. But do we want Hitchhikers from Germany or Hitchhikers living in Germany? The second one might be more accurate if someone moves to another country. --MrTweek 19:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Following the Wikipedia's patterns it is more convenient to have e.g. Hitchhikers from Germany - even if a person does not live there anymore, he/she is still considered to be from Germany. In such a case it wouldn't be wrong to apply two Hitchhikers from... categories to one user: the first one reflecting where the user comes from, and another - of his/her current location.
 * If we all agree on these new categories, I can create them and edit users' pages accordingly.--Sigurdas 19:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, then again, if someone lives in a country for a long time, he can also say he is from there. Alright, so feel free to start :) --MrTweek 20:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely agree with this proposition. Hitchhikers from a certain region in terms of hitchhikers who are based in a certain region. It is not about what your passport says but where you're at/ based. Besides, I know hitchhikers with four nationalities. And where are you from anyway? Robino 23:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it might be confusing, but whatever, just start it, that's how the wiki work ;) Somehow, someday it will sort itself with all those categories ;) --Platschi 20:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will do that. And I do not think we should emphasize the user's nationality but rather focus on the location he/she is from or where he/she resides at the moment - there is quite a significant difference between categories like Hitchhikers from Germany and German hitchhikers. And so I guess most of users will end up having 1 or 2 categories Hitchhiker from.... For example, I am half Russian half Lithuanian Polish born in Lithuania and living in Sweden - this means that I would get two categories Hitchhikers from Lithuania and Hitchhikers from Sweden but not the categories Hitchhikers from Poland and Hitchhikers from Russia since I am neither from there nor living there. If we were to depict the users' national identity it would be correct to apply categories Russian hitchhikers and Polish hitchhikers (+Lithuanian hitchhikers) though (in my case) but since nationality is of little importance for HitchWiki + it can be more puzzling to depict everyone's national identities fully and correctly we should rather abandon such a practice. --Sigurdas 05:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, it's done. ;) --Sigurdas 09:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Great work :) --MrTweek 10:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice :) Maybe also a category for people without a base and who are traveling at the moment? We know quite a few... Permanent travelers would maybe be a good one. I do like the undefined one also though ;) Robino 11:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * After another thought I really think instead of "from country x", it should be "based in country x". I am Dutch, and from the Netherlands but really, if I would define it myself, I am based in the Netherlands. It might be a minor thing to others but for me this is quite important as being "from a country" really associates you with the country you were born, and not were you are based. Like that we can also add the cat. "no permanent base". This would give a lot more justice to how most of us travel. --Robino 11:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I see very little use of changing everything to "Based in..." - that would exclude places where a hitchhiker comes from if he or she does not live there anymore. "Hitchhikers from..." is more universal and at the same time unquestionably more precise when compared to category "Hitchhikers" since it depicts certain country(ies) (of residence and/or birth). In addition, I didn't really get why "Based in..." is so different from "Hitchhikers from" in terms of national belonging from your point of view... huh? ;) Sigurdas 01:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, let me be clear. I like the categorisation, it is nice to have an overview of the people who live close to me. But, I feel pretty insulted with this category and I think there might be some more contributors and hitchhikers. Hitchwiki is quite a special community with specific ideas about stuff. For istance, I almost never tell people I am from the Netherlands, but I am based here. I don't want to repeat my arguments really, but the from country x is confusing since we try to do two things here, one describe the nationality of people (Fuck nationality!!!) and two to describe where people currently live. The from category is therefore very confusing. Also I disagree with how you moved so quickly with this without waiting and consulting for other people to respond. Please rethink you action and think what others might think of it, also for future things you might do. Please remember we are no wikipedia and also, just like with hitchhiking, patience is a good gift, even more so when you start changing people's profiles. Robino 14:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I see now your point. Ok, I suggest less puzzling category Hitchhikers in.... Regarding changing users profile, it would be almost impossible to get or to follow the answers of all users (to ask everyone if one agrees with this or that...), so I really think if we all agree on given category I can then apply it to members, and those who don't like it can always delete it later on.--Sigurdas 19:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About "no permanent base" hitchhikers category: yeah, maybe. In such a case we could introduce Nomads category... hm?--Sigurdas 01:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Almost all of us define ourselves as nomads so that woudln't work either, although it is a nice suggestion. I still prefer hitchhikers without a permanent basem, or something similar Robino 14:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Almost all of us define ourselves as nomads". ?????? 99% of hitchhikers are not, obviously depending on definition of what is... Perhaps among active editors, how about readers of this Wiki. Or yeah, maybe the occasional hitcher, who uses wiki to know something more about hh, does not read this. --Fverhart 19:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, I was exaggerating here. --Robino 19:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

So, since there is some negative response (not huge, but still...) regarding current categorization, I propose this:

1. To rename all Hitchhikers from... categories to Hitchhikers in... - in this way the nationality of the hitcher will be left "sacred".

2. To change users page categories accordingly AND on their talk pages explain politely why we did this, link to this discussion, and say that if they don't like it they can always undo made edits and come back to our common category Hitchhikers.

So basically I can predict that most users will be categorized by countries of their current location (not by nationality), and probably very few who would decide for some reason to stick to the main Hitchhikers category - personally I think it is not such a big deal - freedom of choice is more important. If we all agree on this, I volunteer to do all this. With a respectful promise that I won't touch Prino's page at all. ;) --Sigurdas 05:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. the message to the users can sound like this:

Hi! Your user page category has been changed to Category:Hitchhikers in (your country) because from now on this (along with the old Hitchhikers category) will be a standard categorization for hitchhikers on hitchwiki.org (see this discussion here for the reasons of doing so). If for some reason you don't want to be categorized by country, feel free to delete country category on your page leaving only a standard Category:Hitchhikers. We hope you don't mind. Happy hitching, The hitchwiki team

--Sigurdas 06:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Why can't we have both? With the if-then thing it would be possible to enter both things, isn't it? So people fill in for the from which nationality they have and in the in thing where they currently live their life... I think both things are useful to know and might come handy some day... --Alex 07:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Alex, both things might be handy for you to know, but as per arguments above, people (will) disagree with categorizing ourselves along our 'nationality'. -Robino 09:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The essence of mine is just that there can be as many categories as people like - why fix ourselves to just one or two? --Alex 11:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but a category only makes sense, if it's consistent throughout the wiki. If I want to find hitchhikers in Germany, i don't want to check Hitchhikers in Germany, Hitchhikers living in Germany, German Hitchhikers and Hitchhhikers travelling in Germany. So, many categories are not a problem, but many categories with a almost similar meaning are. --MrTweek 13:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good. I agree with going forward like this, but I would like to have a closer look at the draft text you propose to add in a talk page (meaning almost everyone will receive an e-mail) later this week Robino 09:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, for me that sounds like a good idea. It might also remember old users, that hitchwiki still exists ;) But please proof-read the text, everyone --MrTweek 10:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Consensus
Hmm, looks like this topic is as easy as it seemed. So, let's try to find a consensus. I'll try to order all the stuff a little.
 * Looks like we want to make it easier to find people geographically, but at the same time ignore everyones nationality.
 * So, country of residence is obviously better than nationality. I think we all agree on that.
 * A country of residence says nothing about the distance. But despite the fact, that is criteria is very usual for most people.
 * Then again, people of the same country are likely to get together, because of more common cultural and language.

So, what are we going to use for categorization?
 * nationality
 * country of residence
 * region
 * language(s)

To me, country of residence and language sound best. Region could be used additionally, but I think there are too many small regions in the world. --MrTweek 13:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Though I wouldn't touch languages for now since it is already a lot of mess with current categories (plus I din't get yet how to introduce this categorization) but the country of residence is obviously most suitable one.
 * Proofreading of the draft text above is done. ;) --Sigurdas 14:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The original is a very good one as it lists all hitchhikers with a profile, and it lists all photos that are tagged similar. I would suggest to bring back this category (I don't understand why we deleted it in the first place), and to add one or two extra sub-categories. Country of residence is fine with me if formulated as 'hitchhikers in x'. Languages spoken would be nice but difficult to do but maybe we can add a template for users with certain fields? --Robino 11:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I am not sure if it so smart to have both Category:Hitchhikers and Category:Hitchhikers in ... on user pages since one category includes the other one anyway.
 * So, if no one else is against the above described categorization and the message for the users, next week I will delete from categories and introduce new in ones (or should I rename current ones instead?). --Sigurdas 06:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Hitchhikers in $country sounds good to me. Keeping the old categories makes sense to me either. It's a good overview about all active members. Nice, if you want to see who's around. Let's wait for one week (until 27th of November), to give others a chance to discuss this time ;) --MrTweek 09:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion

 * Change categories from Hitchhikers from xxx to Hitchhikers in xxx.
 * Keep the old Category:Hitchhikers

Messages
A message to a user when adding one category (i.e., user has not specified his/her country of residence): A message to a user when adding two categories (i.e., user has specified his/her country of residence):

More detailed categorization for media files
I have a strong urge to categorize in a more detailed way all these hitchhikers' pictures currently piling up under one general Category:Hitchhikers. I would love to see them rather categorized by Hitchhikers in {specific country} if it is possible to see it from a file description. It can come in hand when one needs a picture for the country/city page. At the same time, uncategorized images could be also put into these and other (countries, etc.) categories. If no one against, will do that in a week or so. --Sigurdas 23:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Usually, we try to put images in Category:Hitchhikers AND Category:Countryname. See Category:Germany for an example. --MrTweek 08:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. However, we haven't had categories Category:Hitchhikers in {specific country} before. So basically, we can chose now: A) to continue categorizing many images with hitchhikers under the same category Category:Hitchhikers (plus adding them to the specific country category); or B) instead of current two categories (of which one is VERY general) to apply one, more detailed one Category:Hitchhikers in {specific country}. I see the second choice rather more logical. --Sigurdas 10:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I like A, as we did it before. Otherwise it will be impossible to have a list of all hitchhikers pictures. --MrTweek 12:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)